Writer of Reba McEntire Hits Liz Hengber on Songwriting, Confidence, & Positivity

A songwriter behind some of your favorite Reba McEntire songs including “It’s Your Call," “And Still,” and “For My Broken Heart” appears on the Bored and Curious Podcast. You can also see the video of this episode here (follow the prompts and leave comments): https://youtu.be/g19VtJXuzcw

You're going to hear the stories behind those songs from the award winning songwriter herself. Liz has been writing hits in Nashville for over 20 years. She has earned 6 #1’s, and has had over 65 songs recorded by some of the biggest names in country music.

She shares stories from her songwriting career, songwriting tips, take us inside the music industry, and also answer some fun personal questions! 

Bored and Curious YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BoredandCuriousPodcastwithMaryKatz
Bored and Curious website & social media links: https://linktr.ee/admin
Liz Hengber's Songs: https://music.youtube.com/search?q=liz+hengber

Episode Guide:
0:00 Intro
1:00 Childhood influences
4:00 Songwriter tip! College for songwriting
5:00 Ignoring Negativity & Moving to Nashville
8:35 Brooklyn "moxie" in Nashville 
10:20 Songwriter tip! Becoming a full time songwriter
11:19 Love most about songwriting
12:00 Story Behind the Song: Just Like Them Horses (Part 1) (Reba McEntire)
13:00 Do you go in the studio with the recording artist?
13:55 What would you change about the industry?
15:23 Songwriter tip! Biggest hurdle in songwriting
16:00 Biggest misconception about the songwriting industry
16:55 Who has "it" out of emerging songwriters?
18:56 Can you tell when a songwriter doesn't have "it?"
19:45 Songwriter tip! Try one more time, be patient, and be positive!
22:04 Who are your dream co-writers and how does that happen?
23:21 Story Behind the Song: Just Like Them Horses (Part 2) (Reba McEntire)
25:42 Songwriter pay | How do you treat yourself?
28:07 The Story Behind the Song (with Songwriter tip): For My Broken Heart (Reba McEntire)
31:16 The first time you heard Reba sing that song
32:03 The Story Behind the Song: It's Your Call (Reba McEntire)
33:22 The Story Behind the Song: Forever Love (Reba McEntire)
34:22 The Story Behind the Song (with Songwriter tip): And Still (Reba McEntire)
36:29 The Story Behind the Song: She's More (Andy Griggs)
37:34 The Story Behind the Song: A Father's Love (Bucky Covington)
39:17 Whatcha watchin'?
40:45 Favorite movie
41:14 Whatcha readin'?
42:00 What's in your song playlist?
42:30 Who's your celebrity crush?
43:01 Do you have pets?
43:28 Where would you like to travel?
43:58 The worst thing you did as a kid
46:14 Most adventurous / riskiest thing you've ever done
46:46 Biggest compliment you could receive?
47:30 Could ya not? (What bothers you?)
47:44 Why in the Sam Hill do we say that?

Intro music artist credit: Short Guitar Clip by Audionautix is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Artist: http://audionautix.com/

Transcript

Liz Hengber (Guest): 0:00

You know, I think that's the line that got the song cut by Reba. I mean, that's one of those lines that make it, makes your hair stand up on end.

Mary Katz (Host): 0:10

Welcome to Bored and Curious. I'm your host, Mary Katz. And joining me today is a songwriter behind some of your favorite Reba McEntire songs, including "It's your Call,""And Still," and "For My Broken Heart." We are going to hear the stories behind those songs from the award-winning songwriter herself, Liz Hengber. Liz has been writing hits in Nashville for over 20 years. She has earned six number ones and has had over 65 songs recorded by some of the biggest names in country music. Today, Liz is going to tell us about her inspirational songwriting career and the importance of positivity and overcoming anxiety. We'll also get to know Liz a little better with, uh, personal questions like, "When you get a nice check from a hit song, how do you treat yourself?" Let's get started. Well, first of all, welcome to Bored and Curious. I am so excited to have you here today. Um, I've listened to your songs for, I mean, gosh, since I started listening to country music and so I'm just, I'm very grateful that you were able to, to join me. So, um, if we, if you don't mind, I'd like to take it all the way back to little baby Liz.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 1:10

Oh my God.

Mary Katz (Host): 1:10

Yes. Yes. Where'd you grow up? I know it's Brooklyn, but if you want to, um, kind of tell the rest of the world a little bit about little Liz growing up and how you got into country music.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 1:23

Uh, well, um, I, little Liz was born at Benson Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, and, um, I was a Beatles fan at the age of four and I, um, you know, when the Beatles came on, Ed Sullivan, I, um, hugged the TV and hugging a TV in 1964 was not a good idea. Ya kind of got zapped. Um, different, There were different TVs then. They were a lot, not very healthy to hug one. And you know, uh, about baby Liz, because a four year old baby Liz that was in, that was in love with the Beatles. I always thought I was in love- I always thought I was in love with Paul and John and the hair and I, and I was like, Oh, I want to marry them. But I realized now that I was not in love with them, I was in love with the licks, with this, with,"Do-do-do I give her all my love." And I think from that moment I became a songwriter, even though I didn't know it yet.

Mary Katz (Host): 2:28

At four.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 2:29

But I think that's when baby Liz, um, that's when it, if without the Beatles, I don't think I'd be a songwriter. I think it just creeped into me. Um, but, um, baby Liz, uh, also baby Liz when she was, um, in the fifth grade sang "What the World Needs Now is Love Sweet Love" in the talent show and they needed to get teachers from other classrooms to stop the laughter. Um, it was at that moment that I realized I'm not a singer. Hmm. Can I make up songs? I sing, I I'm a really bad singer, but then when I came to Nashville, it was like, Oh, I don't have to sing. I could hire Mary to sing or this guy to sing. So that was a beautiful, uh, revelation.. So, um, does that answer baby Liz?

Mary Katz (Host): 3:22

It' does. It's always surprising whenever someone says that they knew that they were going to be a songwriter or something, cause you know my- I have a four year old and right now he wants to work in construction cause he loves building stuff. So it's amazing how kids go from these, you know, I want to be a firefighter, teacher, nurse to a, you just plummeted right into songwriter.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 3:40

Well, I actually didn't didn't I want it to be, I, I realize now that that's, when it began. I wanted to be an actress and I wanted to be a singer, even though I don't act and I don't sing. But I did start making up songs, uh, like in high school. And that's when it, I guess that's when it began actually.

Mary Katz (Host): 4:00

Is there something about college, um, that you think could prepare students better for the songwriting path or a singing career or is there something that they don't really teach in college that you think-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 4:15

The college, you know, I don't know if you know this Mary, but I, I also teach at Belmont.

Mary Katz (Host): 4:19

Yes.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 4:20

Uh, I teach song songwriting and I'm just got to give a plug to Belmont. I mean, it's, uh, if somebody said they wanted to be a songwriter and do you, do you need to go to college for that? I would say yes, if you go to Belmont or Julliard. Especially Belmont college in Nashville, because they really prepare you for hitting Music Row. Um, and, uh, I think, um, just the, the, the songwriting department of Belmont just blows me away. And I'm not, I'm not only saying that because I teach there. Um, I wish they had that when I came to town. I really do.

Mary Katz (Host): 4:59

I imagine that would have been a bit helpful.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 5:02

It might've been,

Mary Katz (Host): 5:04

So when did you take the official leap and move to Nashville to pursue songwritiing? Like what, what made you take that official leap?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 5:11

It's a cool story. Um, in 1986, I was still, uh, an unemployed actress in New York City and did one off Broadway show that was an embarrassment. Uh, So I was an unemployed actress that wasn't really pursuing it like she should have been and I'd come home from my waitressing gigs and I would, um, play guitar and write songs. Well, I got, there was a, uh, a singer in Nashville named Earl Thomas Conley. And he just, he just died. And I loved him. And I had his album and on the back of the album, it said management, Fred Conley with an address. And I said, Oh, I'm going to send this new song. And I had a demo tape. I'm going to send this new song to, uh, this guy, Earl Thomas Conley's brother. And I did, and he sent me back a contract. He sent, he sent me back, sent me what is called a single song contract. And I was like, Oh my goodness gracious. Um, That's that was the first time I ever pitched a song. And I thought, I don't know if I'm living in the right city. Uh, and from there, I took some, some, some courses at the, with the NSAI Nashville Songwriters Association, Association International, and, um, made the, made the decision to move down. Um, long story short, nothing ever happened to the song with Earl Thomas Conley. But that doesn't matter. It's what was the catalyst that brought me down. Um, I look back on that Mary and I, um, and I think that was pretty brave at the age of 26 is how old I was. I don't know if I'd be that brave now. I guess that's the beauty of youth. You know, at, at 26, I was like, Oh, what the heck? You know? And, and I gotta say and it's my dad passed away, but everybody, I ran this by, all my friends in New York. And they were all in the theater because I was going to leave the theater world to write country music. They thought I was crazy. And they thought that a girl from Brooklyn is never come on, Liz, a girl- they're not going to embrace a girl from Brooklyn. The only person to say, "Way to go!" was my dad.

Mary Katz (Host): 7:29

Wow.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 7:30

He, he bought me, he didn't buy me. He gave me the 1973 Oldsmobile. He said, I'll drive you down and then I'll fly home. I'll leave you with the car. And, um, so yes, I, I don't, I don't know if I would have done it Mary, without him, you know, he, you know, I was brave, but he was really, he's the one that went push, if that makes sense.

Mary Katz (Host): 7:51

Oh, it does. Yes, absolutely. I, by the way, 1970 what Oldsmobile?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 7:57

Well, 1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme.

Mary Katz (Host): 8:00

Wow. My first car was a 1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 8:08

Ooh. Nice.

Mary Katz (Host): 8:10

Oh, it was wonderful. The, the hood was rusted and, um, out of the four windows, only one rolled down and it rolled down halfway and the AC did not work. So...

Liz Hengber (Guest): 8:19

I love it. Don't you? Yeah, my mine would, um, same thing mine. My wouldn't my windows wouldn't roll all the way up. And I had some holes in the roof, so when it rained, it rained on me.

Mary Katz (Host): 8:28

Oh wonderful

Liz Hengber (Guest): 8:30

It was lovely.

Mary Katz (Host): 8:31

Yeah. Oh man, it makes me appreciate my Jeep now. So when I think of New York City, Brooklyn, the boroughs and whatnot, I- Perhaps I'm misconstruing this. I don't know. Um, I tend to think that people are a bit more assertive, you know, they get what they want, you know. Whereas here in the South, we're a little, we're a little more polite and you know, "Excuse me, I don't mean to bother you, but..." Um, whereas New York they're like, don't, "Let's get this done." And do you think that that, um, being raised in probably, um, a more assertive environment kind of gave you the gusto to, to go for it and approach publishers? A lot of people would be scared of that.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 9:11

Yes. Yeah. The Brooklyn, Brooklyn way is a, there's a word called "moxie." There's a lot of moxie in the Brooklyn way. And, and, uh, yeah, that is one thing about me. I, I'm not afraid to knock on the doors. I needed- if, if, if, um, I how- How do I say this? I needed to tone it back. And I learned how to do that. Cause when I first came to town, I was like, like, "H!i I'm Liz. Here's my here's my music! Let's write!" And I was way too much. And Amy Kurland at the Bluebird said,"You gotta reel it back a little bit, Liz. You gotta." so I learned, I learned to hide it a little bit, but I still- I'm still pushy. I just, now you don't really notice it that much. I'm pushing, but I'm doing it in a very Southern, polite way rather than, "Hey, what's wrong with you? You don't like my music or what?" That's. That was me.

Mary Katz (Host): 10:05

That's awesome. Bringing back the Brooklyn accent too.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 10:07

Oh, it's it comes back.

Mary Katz (Host): 10:10

Yeah. I, my Southern accent really goes full force when I'm on the phone with my mom.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 10:15

There you go.

Mary Katz (Host): 10:17

In one interview, you had mentioned that, uh, to become a songwriter full-time you had to change your schedule. So you were doing it basically like a nine to five job and you were working nights.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 10:27

Um, yes.

Mary Katz (Host): 10:28

What changes did you notice in your songs once you made that shift?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 10:31

I don't know if there were changes in my songs, but I was writing more songs. I was taking it seriously. Because the more songs you write, the better you'll get is, is how I view it. Um, you know, I made the decision that, you know, I was waiting tables at the Bluebird from, I usually got to the Bluebird at four o'clock, waited tables there till one in the morning. Um, so during the day I'd wake up at nine in the morning and I'd say, okay, you're writing today. This is not a day to go to the mall. It's not a day to go to the movies. If my friend wanted to go to lunch, I said, not while I'm writing. And I, I pretended like I was a staff writer, even though I wasn't, if that makes sense.

Mary Katz (Host): 11:17

It does. Um, so what do you love most about songwriting?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 11:23

Well, some days I hate it.

Mary Katz (Host): 11:26

My next question was, what do you least enjoy?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 11:29

What I love most about it is that, uh, it's, that's another- That's a great question. Is that it's an outlet that I can, it's a playground for me to, uh, I'm very visual. You know, I love to paint my uh my husband's a painter, but I also love to do paintings. It's just a way for me to get out my- is the word and I'm not- I'm terrible... I'm a writer that's terrible with words.."Cathartic?" Is that the word? I can get it out. I can just, if there's pain... There's a song I wrote called "Just Like them Horses" that Reba recorded. And, um, it was, it, it really is based on a combination of my dad passing away. And my, and I was there. I held my dad's hand when he took his last breath and my sister-in-law, it just, I got hit with death back-to-back. Uh, back in, uh, the year 2013, and I'm blessed that I was able to write it and put it into a song. Um, and Tommy Lee, uh, wrote that with me. And the funny thing about that song, Mary, is that all three of us were going through- were dealing with mortality and death. Uh, I lost my dad and my sister-in-law Tommy lost his mom. Reba was losing her dad. So it was the perfect combination of three people getting together. Um, I think we all needed each other at that point. If that makes sense.

Mary Katz (Host): 12:53

It does. It really does. Speaking of, um, Reba... When- Do you go into the studio when one of your songs is being cut in case there needed to be some- any like lyrical changes or-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 13:06

Never.

Mary Katz (Host): 13:07

Wow.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 13:08

I never, in my, I think other writers get invited to the studio. I hear about it. I've never been in a studio when anybody was cutting my songs and, and I, I prefer it that way

Mary Katz (Host): 13:20

Really?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 13:21

Yeah. Because I can't, I'm not gonna, it's the, it's in the producer's hands, you know. He's gonna- Let them interpret it at that point.

Mary Katz (Host): 13:31

Okay.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 13:32

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a, it's not a place for me. There are other writers I knew that I know that have been, but hey, I'm a lyricist, you know. I can't help with the melody. I can't help with production. I don't know, uh, a major five from a flat, whatever.

Mary Katz (Host): 13:51

If you could change one thing about the industry, what would it be?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 13:55

Well, I wish it was more female friendly to female artists.

Mary Katz (Host): 14:00

Okay.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 14:00

Um, it's, uh, Mickey Guyton should be a huge star.

Mary Katz (Host): 14:05

Oh, she's fantastic.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 14:06

She should be huge. Um, she should be as big a name as Eric Church.

Mary Katz (Host): 14:12

Hmm.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 14:13

So that's what, that's what I would change.

Mary Katz (Host): 14:16

Do you think it's just, I mean, are they not marketed as much, or,

Liz Hengber (Guest): 14:21

I don't know. Um, I'm not a, I'm not an artist. I know everything there is about being a writer, but I don't know why country radio doesn't play enough women, you know. But it's like, "Well, we played two women in the last hour. We can't do that." No, you can. You could play five, you know? Uh, I don't know. I think we're way behind. For all of our advancements, and that's in a lot of genres, but for all of our advancements, we're still behind the ball on that. And I'd like to see more African-American artists in country, you know. More Mickey- Mickeys more Dariuses. Um, I think it's starting to change. Um, I was very proud. Um, I forget, uh, Brothers Osborne, one of them came, uh, came out as gay and, um, I'm thrilled that he did that, you know. It's like, yes, we, this is how the business change changes, you know, we have to just go for it.

Mary Katz (Host): 15:15

Absolutely. Yeah. I definitely agree with you on that. Um, What do you think the biggest hurdle is to overcome in songwriting?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 15:27

I think the doubts that get, that keep you from actually writing. Sometimes people say, "Well, I've got writer's block, so I'm not going to write." I don't think there's such a thing as writer's block. I think that you're just not living your life. You know, you need a, you need a song idea, go to a movie with a pad and pencil. Um, I always tell people, my students at Belmont especially,"just show up and see what happens." So I think the biggest hurdle is getting out of your own way, if that makes any sense.

Mary Katz (Host): 15:59

Okay. Putting the pen on the paper. What do you think is the biggest misconception about the music industry or songwriting industry?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 16:07

That's a tough one. The biggest misconception... what w w you know what, let me, what do you, what, What would you think? Let me turn it on you, because I'm not sure how to answer that.

Mary Katz (Host): 16:17

Sure. I would say overnight success.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 16:20

I- That's- I'm going to go with yours. That's true because I just got finished reading Bruce Springsteen's autobiography, Born to Run and not an overnight success. He worked for it. Um, I was not an overnight success. I mean, I, it took me five years to get anybody to take me seriously. And I'm glad. Cause I wasn't ready for it when I first came to this town.

Mary Katz (Host): 16:48

Okay. When it comes to, um, new and emerging songwriters, who do you think really, you know, has "it," whatever that "it" is?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 16:59

Uh, do you mean artists or songwriters?

Mary Katz (Host): 17:02

Songwriters.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 17:04

Oh, my students at Belmont. Um, and I it's terrible. I know them by their first names. I don't know... A new guy that I write with named Reeve Stimson. Uh, he was my student and now we're writing together. He's phenomenal. Uh, a guy I write with named Joey Ebach, he's Justin Ebach's brother. And Joey is a, just, Justin is an amazing writer and Joey is every bit as good too, but I love these new writers. They, I'm not talking about youth young. That's not what I mean, but their finger, they happen to be young. Like when I say young, under 35, it seems that their finger's on the pulse of what's being done out there. And it helps me, you know, it helps me get out of my comfort zone. Uh, those two people come to mind. Um, there's so many though that I, I love that, you've never heard them. Oh, Kellys Collins, Kellys Collins is an amazing writer., uh, uh, it's it's Kelly with an "S" Kellys. She's on the Reba McEntire album. We've we've had a cut together. Um, we can have a cut called The Bar's Getting Lower" on the last Reba album. But she wrote one called "Your Heart." And she wrote it by herself. And I told her that was really mean of her to do she, she could have invited me in on that. But she is, she could do it all, you know, you know. She could do hip hop. She could do traditional country. Uh, the, my writers inspire me, Mary. They really do. They, I work with some incredible talent.

Mary Katz (Host): 18:47

That's awesome. Um, Can you, can you tell when a songwriter who, no matter how hard they try, if they... it's just... they're... it's just not going to happen for them for some reason? And then if you do notice, do you tell them?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 19:04

Okay. Are you saying that that, Oh, well, I can tell you, I would never say that to anybody. Uh, but you're, you're saying a songwriter that I'm co-writing with, whether I know that it's not going to happen for them?

Mary Katz (Host): 19:16

Sure. Just in, in general. Because I, being in Nashville for, uh, for over 20 years at this point, you've I've, I assume you've come across some who you think, "Hmm. That's not..."

Liz Hengber (Guest): 19:28

Um, if I've thought that privately I'm usually wrong. If I think that if I think that they're usually going to be the biggest star ever, um, you just don't know, you know? I, I, and I tell my students this at Belmont, too. I said, "If you have a co-write and it goes bad and you're thinking, 'Oh man, this person and me just didn't jive,' make sure you try it one more time. Because the second time you may go, wait a minute, this is cool." That that happened. And the guy that happened with one of my favorite co-writers and he'll go nameless. Cause I don't want him to ever know that I thought of him that way, but we've had cuts together, me and this gentlemen, and I thought the first time that we got together, I thought, Oh no, we're not getting anything. This is not working. I gave it a second try. And it was love at first write. I was like, I was so wrong. I can't tell you Mary, how many times I've been wrong about somebody that way. So to answer your question, no, I would, and I would never tell anybody they don't have it because who am I to judge? I don't know. You know, but no, I, um, anyway, I hope that answers the question. I think that does, I, I, uh, I could never assume that somebody is not going to happen cause you just don't know.

Mary Katz (Host): 20:48

Yeah. I was curious about that because in, in other industries, you know, if someone is, um, an accountant, and they're just not doing the numbers well. If you know, someone is a teacher and maybe all of the students are rebelling or they're failing or however that works; however you judge a teacher. I have no idea. Um, or you got a lawyer that's not winning any cases. So in other professions, there's, you know, metrics that can be used to determine someone's performance level. And I just didn't know if there was like, um, anything that-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 21:18

Not to me. I mean, the only thing is that, that, not that they're not going to make it, but will they last in the business? If they have too much negativity, if they're, um, judgmental in the writing appointment. If they- You know, I have worked with writers that are like, "Come on, Liz, that's corny" or whatever. It's like, okay, we're definitely not gonna book this again. Um, those people, I would say may not last very long the business, cause you know, the business wants to be full of likable people. You know, um, people have lost their publishing deals and their record deals because they just were unworkable.

Mary Katz (Host): 22:01

Is there someone in the industry who you haven't worked with yet, but you really want to?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 22:06

Yes, there's so many. Oh God. I would love to sit in a room and write with Eric Church. I'd love to, uh, who I haven't worked with that I'd love to work with. Um, Mickey Guyton. I'd love to get in a co-write with her. Oh, that would be just such an honor because I love everything she does. Um, and there's the list goes on and on. Yes. I have a wishlist.

Mary Katz (Host): 22:32

How does that work in terms of, um, co-writing with someone because you're with one publishing company; if Eric Church is with another publishing company, do you have to work an individual contract to work that out? Or do you just say, "Hey, no, we're just going to write together?"

Liz Hengber (Guest): 22:48

Uh, usually the publisher has set them up. We know usually, you know... let's say Let's make up a fictitious man named, you know, Joe Black. I want to write with Joe Black. Uh, my publisher will call and it's, he's an artist as well. My publisher will either call the management company or call the publisher and they'll work it out. They'll either say yes or they'll say no. Uh, sometimes they say yes. Uh, I'm still not afraid to know if they, if they turn me down, I'll ask them again.

Mary Katz (Host): 23:17

That's the Brooklyn in ya!,

Liz Hengber (Guest): 23:18

That's the Brooklyn in me. Yeah.

Mary Katz (Host): 23:21

Do you have a favorite song of yours that you've written? Um, or one that means the most to you?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 23:28

I think the most important song I wrote, for me, and I don't know, I honestly don't know whether I'll ever top it and that's okay. Is is "Just Like them Horses." It was the most honest I've ever been in a song. Uh, I didn't write that to get it, to make, to get it. it cut. I wrote it to get it out. Here's what happened with, with "Just Like them Horses." I wrote, I'm not a melody writer, but I thought I'm going to write this melody because I can do it. So I wrote the entire lyric and I put a melody to it and I thought, this is good. I'm going to send this to Reba. And I drove around the neighborhood, listening to it. Maybe I'll put it to my it's what I was burning CDs. And I said, "This melody is horrible, Liz you, you know. The melody is horrible and you know who to call." So I called up Tommy Lee James, who I've had, who's an amazing writer and lyricist in his own right.. Uh, but, but, but melody, he's un- unreal. I sent it to him and in 20 minutes he had the melody, he sent it back to me. And what I heard just crushed me. It was so beautiful. We quickly did a demo with him singing. I quickly emailed it to Reba. And I'm very, you know, Reba has cut a lot of my songs, but she turns down songs too, of course. She, not every one of my songs wows her. But this one I really wanted, I wanted her to like this one. This one meant a lot to me. So she, so the email, like *ding*"you you've got mail" and it was Reba responding to "Just Like the Horses." Uh, Mary, I couldn't open up the email right away. I had to go down to the fridge and pour myself some white wine. And I went upstairs and I held onto that white wine and I took a sip and I said, okay, open it up. And the email said, "Put this one on hold, put this one on hold for me." And I was like, "Yaaaaay!" I really, it was something about that song. I was like, I really wanted her to see it. So that's that.

Mary Katz (Host): 25:39

And the rest is history.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 25:40

The rest is history.

Mary Katz (Host): 25:41

So when a song is a hit, okay, I'm a say this because, um, I think a lot of people don't understand the, um, they're just not aware of the pay structure when it comes to songwriting and they hear the term staff writer and they think that's a salary based position. And it's generally not.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 25:59

No, well, it seems, it feels like it is, but, but it's money from future royalties. So let's say I make 50 and let's say I make $50,000 a year from, uh, a company called Apple company, Apple Publishing. I make $50,000 a year, but when the new Reba McEntire album comes out, they're going to take their part of the money they're going to take- so that 50,000 is an advance pretty much. So you're either in the black to your company or you're in the red. Uh, they've either paid you so much money- you never really pay that money back, but you know, you, you probably will never see anything from record sales, either; record sale money.

Mary Katz (Host): 26:46

Oh.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 26:46

That's how the publishing- publisher gets his money back.

Mary Katz (Host): 26:50

Gotcha. So when, um, our record does come out and it's a hit, you've gone to number one, the royalties are coming in. Awesome. Awesome. How do you treat yourself? Like-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 27:02

How do I treat myself?

Mary Katz (Host): 27:03

How do you treat yourself? Yes.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 27:05

Oh, golly. Well, how I treated myself in the old days and how I treat myself now are different. Um, in the old days I would go to Vegas and put a, a thousand dollars on black. Those days are gone. I did that in my youth then I married my husband, Phil Foster. And he said, okay, we're not doing that. Um, so now I, I have something called a travel fund and I put money away for travel. Cause I love to travel, but that's how I treat myself by traveling.

Mary Katz (Host): 27:38

I love it. Yeah.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 27:40

Good questions, Mary!

Mary Katz (Host): 27:41

Where, um, where do you, where do you like to travel whenever you-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 27:45

We, right before COVID hit, we went to Italy and we went to Florence and we made it three months before COVID hit.

Mary Katz (Host): 27:55

Wow.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 27:56

So I'm so grateful. We chose that time to go.

Mary Katz (Host): 28:02

I'm dying to go to Italy. I just want to eat the food and look at everything.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 28:06

Oh my god. It's beautiful.

Mary Katz (Host): 28:08

So let's switch gears a little bit and move into the, the story behind the song.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 28:15

Sure.

Mary Katz (Host): 28:15

My first one, probably my absolute favorite is "For My Broken Heart."

Liz Hengber (Guest): 28:20

Okay.

Mary Katz (Host): 28:20

Every time I hear that song, it's like, I'm hearing it for the first time.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 28:23

Here's the story. And it involves one of the greatest writers that Nashville has ever known and singers, and he's not alive anymore. He had a short life, I think he died at 37. His name was Keith Palmer. Keith Palmer did a demo for me. Uh, he sang a demo for me, uh, and when he was done, He's-I said, you did great. I said, you're a writer too. Let's write some time. And he said, sure. And so we booked a day to write, and here's the true story of that. I was very nervous because it was a new writing appointment and I was going to cancel that appointment because I was so nervous. And also Macy's was having, uh, the Clinique sale and I thought, wow, if I go to to Macy's now I'll be the first to get that Clinique bag. You know, the, the, where you have all the, the special stuff. I love that stuff.

Mary Katz (Host): 29:18

I still do that!

Liz Hengber (Guest): 29:19

Something in me said, no, Liz show up, you know, Keith seems like a nice guy and I showed up anyway. I showed up for work. I did not go get the Clinique bag. And if I had gone to get the Clinique bag. I would have deprived myself of me, of really working with one of the best writers in town, Keith Palmer. I would've deprived myself of my first number one song. I would've deprived myself of, of my first publishing deal. I mean, there were, I mean, I was a, nobody, when I was writing For My Broken Heart," I was a waitress who who was obsessed with Clinique bags, you know, but I, I went to that writing appointment and that writing appointment changed the whole course of my life.

Mary Katz (Host): 30:05

Wow.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 30:05

Which is really unbelievable; the decisions you make. I mean, I, I almost didn't do it cause I was nervous. You know, and what a tragedy that would have been. I was- And I was also very close to moving back to New York and I, it was five years at that point and nobody was cutting my songs, but that was the one. And I had no idea, you know. I went to later, after I wrote with Keith, I went back to the Bluebird to finish- Actually, I was working at the German restaurant that I went to the German restaurant and worked until one in the morning. I had no idea that I was sitting on my career song. No, no. And so I tell my, I like to tell my students show up, you know. You just never know, you never know what's going to happen. Anyway, that's that story.

Mary Katz (Host): 30:51

Do you remember the first time you heard Reba singing that incredible chorus? Like her voice just soars and it's amazing.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 31:00

Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I re-, Well, I remember the first time I heard it on the radio. I was late for a writing appointment and I had not heard the song on the radio yet. And lo and behold, it came on the radio and I could not just go to my writing appointment. I had to, I had to drive my car. I drove my car and parked it in front of my first apartment that I got when I lived in Nashville. And I looked at the apartment and I said, "We did it! It really happened!" It was- It's- I won't lie; it was more than exciting.

Mary Katz (Host): 31:33

I got chills when you said that.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 31:36

It w- it, it was wonderful.

Mary Katz (Host): 31:38

I really hope this, this next one is not something that you experienced. Cause that would be awful if, if, uh, if it is."It's Your Call." Please tell me you didn't write that-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 31:49

No, that's not anything I experienced. It was, um, that was not my idea. That was Shawna Harrington, another great writer. That was her idea. Um, And I remember it was me, Shawna Harrington and Bruce Burch. And, uh, I remember we were one line away with that song. And Bruce Burch is such a great writer and he's, he's always scribbling something on a pad where whereas when I write, I don't scribble. I just throw out, I'm loud and I throw out lyrics and there's Bruce, we were one line away. And Bruce said, "I don't know, I have this line. I'm not sure if it's really good or not." And I said, "Well, what is it?" And he said, "She called here to talk to you with a message I can't take." And I fell off my chair. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, that is so the line. I, I, you know, I think that's the line that got the song cut by Reba. I mean, that's one of those lines that make, it makes your hair stand up on end. That's the-

Mary Katz (Host): 32:47

'Cause it has more than one meaning for sure. But it just kills your heart.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 32:52

Oh, he killed me that day. Bruce- I was like, Bruce, you're killing me. You're killing me. He's so good.

Mary Katz (Host): 32:58

And, um, the next song on my list is "Forever Love."

Liz Hengber (Guest): 33:02

Oh, I love that song. It is a, that one was almost like we were, we Reba was doing a movie about a woman that was in a coma for, for 20 years or maybe 15 years in a coma and that, and they said, we need a song for the movie. It can't be very rangy because one of the actors needs to sing it to her by her bedside. And I said, Well, what's the premise?" And they said, "Well, she's in a coma, but he's always going to love her." And I said to Mike, my publisher, Mike Sebastian "How about Forever Love?" And he went "Good, write it." And we wrote it. And And uh it became the title of the movie. So it, it was a, that was an honor. That was great. That was with Deanna Bryant and Sonny Russ.

Mary Katz (Host): 33:55

Awesome. It's a beautiful song. I listened to it today at the gym. My next one is, "And Still." This song kills me. Like I can think of some scenarios where that would be, where you, you know-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 34:10

That did happen. And that's a combination of something that happened to me and a movie and getting a song idea from a movie. Um, that whole scene where, you know, at the end of the song, she, she thinks this guy is single. And then at the end of the song along comes the wife, um, that is a scene out of the movie Made in Heaven with, uh, Timothy Hutton and Kelly McGinnis. And that exact thing happens at the end of the movie. Um, the Kelly McGinnis is talking to him to her ex-husband and they're reconnecting and along comes the beautiful blonde wife and then her, her heart just drops. It also happened to me because, uh, I was. The the it begins with, "There was nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. He walked up to me, looked in my eyes." I was leaving a bar once, uh, right near Music Row at about 11, 11 at night. And who should I run into, but my ex and his girlfriend? And literally that's where that line came from. There was nowhere to run nowhere to hide. I was like, what are you going to do? If I run away, they're going to say, Oh, look at that. Liz ran away from us. You got to take these things from life and just write about them.

Mary Katz (Host): 35:28

Absolutely. Okay. Moving on.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 35:30

I feel like I'm talking too much about myself, Mary.

Mary Katz (Host): 35:33

Oh, I'm loving it. I, I see Kelly Clarkson on her show and I see her energy level and how excited she gets to talk about you know the topics on her show. And I can see, I don't know if she's looking at a producer or what to like that's keeping her on track. Cause you could tell she gets really excited and then she has to like take it down. So I'm, I'm trying to keep myself.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 35:54

Oh, you're doing great.

Mary Katz (Host): 35:55

Oh my gosh. Cause I like I'm having a, I'm having a Beatles moment right now. Okay. The next song I have is, uh, "She's More."

Liz Hengber (Guest): 36:08

Oh, that was me and the wonderful Rob Crosby. Uh, that was our first writing appointment. We shook hands, introduced ourselves to each other. And I had this idea. I said, "I have an idea called 'She's not what I was looking for; she's more.'" And Rob just said, "I love it." And we wrote that in one day. Uh, and, um, there was a new kid named Andy Griggs. They said, "Well, we're going to pitch this to him." And I said, "Pitch it to, pitch it to the Korean deli, if you want. I don't care. Just get my songs out there." And, um, Andy cut it. And, uh, it went to number one. Uh, that was an honor. Andy Griggs. Golly, what a talent.

Mary Katz (Host): 36:52

He has an amazing voice.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 36:53

Yeah. And Rob Crosby, that was, that was the first of many with Rob Crosby.

Mary Katz (Host): 37:00

Do you have any songs that you would want to mention, perhaps the story behind the song or did I kind of cover my-

Liz Hengber (Guest): 37:07

Um, you know,"A Father's Love / The Only Way He Knows How" was a very special one, because that's really about my pop. Um, it was about all of our dads, you know. We, we, all three of us went to lunch and it turns out we all had the same dad. And what I love about that song is that my dad literally helped us write the second verse. In the second verse of "A Father's Love" for people who don't know what the song's about. It's about a guy, a father who can't say, I love you. So instead of saying, I love you. He does things for the kid. So in the second verse, he buys a new house and the dad starts fixing things and getting under the sink and "hold the flashlight for me." And so when we were writing the second verse, none of us were handy. And I said, "Hi Dad, we're writing a song." I said, "What's the first thing you need to do when you find a house; what do you need?" And he goes, "You're looking for a house?" And I said, no. I said, "Well, what would you do if you were buying a house? What are the things-?" He goes, "Oh, well, come on, Liz. You got to. Got to see if the, if the, if the electricity is up to code. You're really bad at that. And you ignore those things. Those are important details. And you've got, let's get under the sink, you know, get, you know, put, get on your knees and get under the sink with a flashlight." And those guys were laughing, their butts off. They were like, Oh my God, that's so funny. They were writing down everything he was saying. And I said, "Okay, Dad. Thanks, bye." And we literally wrote that second verse verbatim. Okay he talked about the codes, he talked about the plumbing. And we, we, so he helped write that song. He didn't get credit and he should've.

Mary Katz (Host): 38:43

I have a friend who recently bought a house and she should have listened to that song, like before the inspector came because he missed some stuff.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 38:50

Yeah.

Mary Katz (Host): 38:52

Okay. Switching gears to a little bit of personal stuff, just for fun. This is what I call this segment. Um, so first of all, are, do you watch TV? And if so, whatcha watchin'?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 39:03

Oh, man, I can't stop. I'm late to the game, but I'm bingeing on Mad Men and I got to stop. I love it. It's an amazing show, but Oh my God, they were, I don't know if there's a redeeming character in that. I mean, it's like, it's so dark. Um, I'm struggling with it, but I'm addicted to it. And I'm addicted to Sex and the City.. I could, I could recite every single episode I can. I know the dialogue.

Mary Katz (Host): 39:32

That's me with Friends, but Sex and the City they're coming out with a new one.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 39:37

I cannot wait! Aaaah! I'm excited.

Mary Katz (Host): 39:42

Yes. It's gonna be fantastic. Um, so I guess Sex and the City would then be your favorite TV show. Cause that was my next question.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 39:49

Yeah, that was my favorite. And I got a lot of song ideas from it, too.

Mary Katz (Host): 39:52

Really? Any of the ones that, that are kind of the more major, like out on the airwaves?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 39:58

No, but one that just got recorded, uh, you know, you know, when Aiden's on his knees in the middle of the, of the street and he proposes to Carrie? Uh, I put that in a song that I wrote with Emily Weisband and, um, Oh my other co-writer is so wonderful and oh, Sonya Isaacs. Uh, I, so I put that whole scene into a song.

Mary Katz (Host): 40:19

That's awesome. Do you have a favorite movie? And if so, what is it?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 40:25

It changes. Uh shawshank Redemption, but there's a movie that I streamed that I can't stop watching. I've watched it three times. It's called Life Itself.

Mary Katz (Host): 40:36

Okay.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 40:36

And it's on Amazon prime. Uh, but famous movie, Shawshank Redemption. It's a Wonderful Life, of course. Um, When Harry Met Sally, Casablanca. I love movies.

Mary Katz (Host): 40:49

I'm a bit of a reader. So do you have anything that you're reading; books or anything? What's your, um,

Liz Hengber (Guest): 40:55

I, uh, my favorite book I've ever read is, is, um, 11/22/63 by Stephen King.

Mary Katz (Host): 41:03

Ooh,

Liz Hengber (Guest): 41:04

And I'm not a huge Stephen King fan. Uh, but this is it's about a guy that goes back into time to try to stop the Kennedy assassination.

Mary Katz (Host): 41:12

Oh, wow.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 41:12

It's so good. Uh, best book I ever read. Um, I love The Catcher in the Rye. I love F Scott Fitzgerald. Um, The Great Gatsby. Uh, right now I'm reading the Andy Carpenter detective series. I love that. Uh, no, he's a lawyer, not a detective.. No. A the law- the lawyer series, Andy Carpenter. Uh, the Andy Carpenter books. They're wonderful.

Mary Katz (Host): 41:34

Okay. Very good. What's in your song rotation?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 41:39

Oh, you mean my playlist? The songs that-

Mary Katz (Host): 41:41

yeah.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 41:41

Well, I'll tell you, uh, um, um, Amos Lee, America, uh, Ashley McBryde. Who else is on there? A group called Del Amitri. uh, Reba, of course. Ben rector. Oh, some old Brooks and Dunn.

Mary Katz (Host): 41:59

Oh yeah.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:00

Uh, Bruce Springsteen, Bruce Springsteen, Bruce Springsteen.

Mary Katz (Host): 42:06

That's awesome. If you have a celebrity crush, who is it?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:10

Celebrity crush?

Mary Katz (Host): 42:12

Yeah.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:14

Mark Ruffalo. Is that how you pronounce his name?

Mary Katz (Host): 42:16

Yeah.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:17

Uh, also, uh, Ed Harris, the actor Ed Harris. I know the young people are going, Oh, he's an old man. Well, I'm an old lady. So Ed Harris. And a young, a young Gene Hackman,

Mary Katz (Host): 42:33

I can see it. Yeah. And do you have any pets?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:39

Yeah. Macy J. Foster. She's a rescue dog. She's a lab. She's out with her daddy right now.

Mary Katz (Host): 42:47

We've got three rescue doggies ourselves.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 42:49

I'm second. My husband, she likes, she likes me. She loves my husband. She tolerates me.

Mary Katz (Host): 42:57

Yeah. That's how, uh, our, one of our German Shepherds is with my husband. She barely acknowledges my existence. You like traveling, right?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 43:06

I love to travel.

Mary Katz (Host): 43:06

So is there somewhere you haven't traveled that you you'd like to when this whole pandemic thing settles down?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 43:13

Uh, I'd like to see Denmark. I'd like to see Sweden and Norway. I think that would be fun. Um, don't want to go to Africa, not much on Spain, but I think I'd like to go to Norway and all those places.

Mary Katz (Host): 43:29

I bet you'd be able to see the Northern lights from there.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 43:31

That would be fun.

Mary Katz (Host): 43:34

All right. And what's the worst thing you did as a kid? I feel like this is a really fun question. You get some really good stories with this.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 43:42

Wow... The worst thing. I, I know what the worst thing I did as a kid, but you're not going to like me very much for it. Well, I was bullied when I was a kid. I was bullied in the seventh grade. And for some reason, instead of that should have made me more compassionate, but it didn't. When I was in seventh grade, me and another girl bullied a girl and I've recently apologized to her. She said she has no memory of it. But I think it's the and I, and maybe she's, maybe it was worse than I thought, but I thought we, I didn't, we didn't bully badly. Nothing compared to what bullies do today, but it was the worst thing I think I've ever done in my life actually. And I don't, and I should have known because I was being bullied. I think I did it because of that. When you're 13, you're just messed up. I was a messed up unhappy 13 year old and, um, I wrote a song about it. And I apologized to her. I said, there's, "I should not have teased you." You know, like I said, I, I, what I, what, what I did, what me and this other girl did to this girl was more into the category of teasing rather than, I mean, full range bullying today is actually dangerous.

Mary Katz (Host): 44:59

Yes.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 44:59

Uh, but, uh, that's the worst thing I did. And sometimes I think about it sometimes like, go, what, what were you thinking? You know, I'm not a mean person. I'm a pushy person, but I'm not mean. I'm very compassionate and, and things like that break. If I see a kid being bullied, I just want to step in and just say, just cut it out. So I'm hated admitting that to you, but you seem to get it out of people, Mary. I don't know.

Mary Katz (Host): 45:27

I mean, well, you know, kids, kids do a lot of just outlandish things, you know. We're all learning and, um, that's what, that's what forgiveness is for. We're all just trying to find it our way.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 45:39

Yeah. My mom caught wind of it and I, and I got punished and the best thing she ever did was punish me for that.

Mary Katz (Host): 45:47

What's the most adventurous thing you've ever done or riskiest?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 45:51

I didn't, I didn't know it was risky at the time, but I hitchhiked around Ireland.

Mary Katz (Host): 45:55

Oh boy.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 45:57

When I was, um, 24. And I came back from that trip to an eviction notice. I decided to just go to Ireland instead of paying two months rent. I'm telling you I was not all there.

Mary Katz (Host): 46:15

Oh, that's good. That's good. You learn your lesson, but you had a, you had a good time.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 46:20

I did.

Mary Katz (Host): 46:21

All right. And, uh, what is the biggest compliment you could ever receive?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 46:27

These are good questions. Um, that I'm a good teacher.

Mary Katz (Host): 46:32

Hmm. Do I mean, but I would assume that your students probably, hopefully let you know that.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 46:40

They do. And some, some I haven't reached and some with some I have reached and, and inspired, and that, that really makes me happy. I, I teach one night a week at Belmont and it it's a wonderful, I love Tuesday nights. I really do.

Mary Katz (Host): 46:58

Awesome. Well, those are all my, just for fun questions. We can switch gears here. Um, I think we'll be done in about five minutes. Um, moving on to, Could Ya Not...?, uh, As previously discussed whether it's professional, personal, whatever it is, just tell the world, could you not...?

Liz Hengber (Guest): 47:15

Could you not be judgmental?

Mary Katz (Host): 47:17

Okay. And moving on to Why in the Sam Hill Do We Say That?. All right, I'll give you three options. We've got "Sam Hill," got "under the weather," and "a country mile."

Liz Hengber (Guest): 47:34

You want me to choose one? Uh, under the weather.

Mary Katz (Host): 47:38

It's origin may have to do with sailing. The website The Phrase Finder mentions that in older times, when a sailor was feeling seasick, he would be sent below deck so he could get away from being under the harsh weather.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 47:50

Oh, good.

Mary Katz (Host): 47:53

And now we know.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 47:53

I like that.

Mary Katz (Host): 47:55

Alrighty. Yeah. I came across those when I- We've had like seven au pairs. And so they, you know, they're all from different countries and I would say things like under the weather and they're like, "What? What are you talking about?" And I'm like, Ooh, I don't know.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 48:08

It's an American thing.

Mary Katz (Host): 48:10

Why do we say that? So, all right. That is it for Bored and Curious. If you have anything you would like to add, whether it's about songwriting or just life or anything, the floor is yours. If there's anything you want to put out there.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 48:23

Oh, I just want to say thank you. You're, you know, I I've done a few interviews, but I always feel guilty. Like I'm just talking too much about myself, but, um, you're very good at this and I can't, I cannot wait to hear it. And, and hear and hear your other people that you have on. I'm sure you do other things besides songwriters, but I'd be just love to hear it. I think, I think it's a. I'm new to podcasts and I love them.

Mary Katz (Host): 48:48

I really do appreciate you coming on today. I'm just, I'm a huge fan. Thank you. You did great. And ask me anytime. All right. Thank you so much.

Liz Hengber (Guest): 48:58

Okay, bye.

Mary Katz (Host): 49:00

Alrighty, folks. Thanks so much for checking out this video. Got lots of more fun stuff coming up. Make sure you are subscribed to the channel and give us a follow over on social media. Be sure to check out Liz's latest song, "If You Had a Heart" recorded by Jillian Cardarelli. Thanks again. And we'll see you in the next episode. Bye